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Debouxthay was a gunmaker in Liege, Belgium, active at least from 1888-1904. Burrard, Major Sir Gerald. Double proof as prescribed by the French law of 1810. Long Beach, CA: Safari Press, 2000. The blue is rough but the action works. manufacturers identifying marks, more commonly referred to as Proof Marks, Arsenal or Inspector Marks Thanks for any help you can offer.Rick dwonczyk, I found one with elg with a star underneath in a circle but there was also a T with a star above it and the letter S also on the cylinder pin fire solid erase revolver with a collapsible trigger was told it was .31, Hi, Rick. I have a vintage double barrel that I have a few questions about. 1891 - present 16 Barrel weight in grams of nitro proofed shotguns. Any help would be appreciated. I believe you'll find that the E in a diamond symbol is the mark used by the Timothy Eaton company of Toronto Canada. Dear Shamsher, I can't help much without sharp photos, but it appears your gun is Belgian, made in Liege, no earlier than 1893. Judging by the comments that appeared when I Googled "spesco corporation," your guess is on target. Each gun maker is presented with the maximum of data available and a wealth of color pictures about the most . These marks are customarily the cipher of the gunsmiths guild and the mark of the State or city. Purchased by Val Forgett of Navy Arms in 1978. Using a shotgun shell (a self-contained cartridge with multiple small, sphere-shaped projectiles) instead of a usual bullet is what makes a shotgun a separate kind of a gun. A strong good product that will last for long usage in your What does 12 over C mean in a triangle? In the Proof Marks; my piece has a Star P, which in the article you do not identify. and BELGIUM had a glut of old, obsolete flint lock and percussion gun parts left over from years past. proof marks. The Technically the company is owned by Belgium firearms maker FN Herstal. location, rather than a manufacturer. x\}WT_0qk E%Mp8@S36QG7=TFx,P?wU]4v>3}wc)0~_+. date, serial number and property marks as well as various acceptance and Jun 21, 2012. Classic Arms Importers and manufacturers of blackpowder guns and kits, located in Palmer, Massachusetts. Listing of small arms appearing from 1800 to 1899. Navigation (GPS, altimetres, compasses, maps), Immediate shipping on a all products listed. There is a lot of glare in the photo of the barrels' "water table" The left (right as viewed upside down, and likely the tighter choked) barrel seems to read "18.4 (bore size in mm) choke 18.2". Scroll through our inventory of antique pistols and handguns from our cartridge pistols and revolvers category below. Members . A fine antique 18th Century Double Barreled English Percussion Sporting Gun by the famous maker Henry Nock London, caliber 14 mm . I have a Belgium 38-40 with a 7 in barrel all matching. It could be almost anything: an English Greener, which would have Birmingham, England, proof marks, or it could be a double of dubious origin. Bernard Alphonse I'm still working on a date and it seems like narrowing it down by what years it could'nt be from might be a better strategy. In addition to If not, consider it loaded and potentially dangerous. The "D.D. Greetings Easthampton,I have been researching an old antique pistol that has been in our family for generations.What leads me to your group was the Hits and Misses article posted in 2014; on Deciphering Belgian Proof Marks (my piece has the spelling Belgium). Bertrand Antoine & Fils Joseph Farrell on October 27, 2020: Beretta, a maker of handguns and shotguns, has hired an Elvis Presley impersonator for live events. It is a 12 gauge with 70mm = 2 3/4" chambers. Liege, Belgium has been a gunmaking center for centuries. examiner must rely on proof marks when trying to identify these arsenal marks, you will find other marks or stampings. The earliest 3D-printed guns were crude single-shot devices. individual armorers and inspectors used their own unique stamps in some He leases space in the Olathe Gun Shop where, at any given time, you can see hundreds. Please note! The drawings vary in style due to differences in the original information.Most are black silhouettes, but some of those that have been produced from photographs have a quasi 3 dimensional appearance that requires the onlooker . determination. Hi, thanks for the info and knowledge you provided. with this information in an attempt to clear up some wrong information . Parisa cipher of E. and P. set back to back (as shown below). Belgium Belgian Proofmarks Belgian proofs are among the oldest and have a very long history. stream Ray D, STOGERS, advertised them as being made for the AFRICAN tribes to hunt with because with them they would not be able to rebel against the BELGIAN rulers who had modern arms. Andr M.J. Broqua & Scholberg One of the lesser known of the Belgian handgun makers was Jean Warnant but he was a creative designer and the British Thornton's Patent for a double action revolver lock work was actually originally his idea for which he applied for a patent in Belgium in 1874 and that patent was granted in 1875. Originally evolved by the armourers themselves, the system of proof was in nearly every arms-producing country taken over by the Municipality or the State, who imposed a series of stringent by-laws and penalties on any who sought to evade the prescribed tests. In its small version its a acceptance mark on barrels that was exported in a unfinished state 1846-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small pistols and revolvers barrels 1866-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small revolvers cylinders 1866-1893. Some older foreign Charlier Ch. Christophe Louis Guns and rifles built in Germany and the German principalities before the 1890s typically did not carry proof marks, but the 1891 proof law "grandfathered" these arms by mandating that they be submitted to the proof house and marked with a crown-over-V, the V standing for vorrat or "on hand". Worldwide Logistics for all your products. Comblain Hubert Joseph 1899-2011 Modern Guns. Cap Joseph ]v8 >ZX 2Fu}) I recently decided to clean it up. Again, thank you % Belgian Liege gunmakers (D to F) - Volume 2. It was used by a myriad of hunters for all kinds of wild game. 1 On the chamber or or lock on muzzle loading which has passed final black powder proof. On the bottom of the barrel it has the proof mark like number 9 (E,L,G,) (no crown). I know the bottom image. The viewers mark was a capital V, also surmounted with a crown. These marks have all the characteristic appearance of a rectangle, with a small blob at the top rather like a tied up sack of corn. Second Variation serial numbers 707517-851751 (7,000 produced) - 708921. Or any info? The numbers 138 G(looks like a 1) are under the proof mark. Just as many muzzleloaders were converted to breechloadersthink of the Springfield trapdoor action or the British Snidermany pin-fires were converted to center-fire guns. Collard Henri - Roux Jacques Hand Guns 17 Rifles-Shotguns 1 . There's no indication of chamber length--but that didn't begin until 1892.The other marks I can't identify.So what can I tell you? Beau, I need help finding out more about this pistol.. leg in a circle star over the k in 3 places and a crown over jj and the name j. Cueruy and NR under the grip. You may know how to do this: put the ramrod down the barrel and mark it with a pencil at the muzzle. Colot Last edited on 20 February 2023, at 21:10, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_firearm_brands&oldid=1140599647, Air defense equipment, artillery, munitions, explosives, ED devices, industrial machinery, Ammunition, Suppressors, Outdoor products, Clothing, Civilian, law enforcement, military, security, Suppressors, rails/handguards, accessories, ammunition, clothing. Bernimolin 2023 Military Pay Chart Military Ranks DoD Dictionary Conversion Calculators Military Alphabet Code Military Map Symbols The "Military Factory" name and MilitaryFactory.com logo are registered U.S. trademarks protected by all applicable domestic and international intellectual property laws. By Alain Daubresse. The gun belonged to HH Nawab Ahsanullah. Closset Louis late 1880's to early 1890's, .22 caliber rim fire 22 1/2 octagonal barrel, carved walnut stock, iron furniture. I have tried to look up an 1136 but am unable to locate them anywhere. The first type of testing we will study is the Proof Test. Collette Lopold Boden Sixteen-gauge guns generally fall somewhere in between. Ancion DD & Fils To my knowledge, there isn't a book out that covers European proof marks: If someone knows about such a book, please add a comment with that information. I also looked at other European proof marks but didn't find the one you mention: compare http://www.cornellpubs.com/Catalog/proof-marks-intl.pdf. On top between the barrels "CANONS ACIER GARANTI". Email: ghcox3@gmail.com. My grandfather was a hunter long back in time just after WW2 and I have his shotgun in memory of him. A.H. Fox guns came in 12-gauge, 16-gauge, and 20-gauge. Clment Walter Their proof marks are two feathers, or curved branches, crossed with letters in the angles of the cross so formed. A "Greener" double? to share our findings by this means of communication. Get this product now as it would not last, Contract - 5.56 x 45mm 62 Gr. Comblain Dieudonn Joseph SCH or EC is abbreviations of the powder: SCH meaning Schultze. The Baby Browning in . Thank you Jerry. Search. Made in Belgium, circa 1890, cracked stock with pistrol grip, old refinish to action. Clment Charles Philibert Ever seen that? Testing the gun The rifle requirements were developed through a process of lengthy trials and included, most notably, the box magazine that could be loaded by stripper clip or by. If 'JF' it could be Janssen Fils or Frres. Modern pistols and revolvers are proved in their last stage of manufacture when complete with action and in firing order. Measuring the bore diameter and chamber "Arsenal" or "Inspector Marks". It means it's a 12 gauge that has been proofed with black powder. There are a total of [ 71 ] Belgium Infantry Arms List (Current and Former Types) entries in the Military Factory. Volunteer arms co. on October 29, 2020: 16 gauge serial number is 90524xe what would it be worth and how old is it. The Great Exhibition of 1851 in London did much to publicize Lefaucheuxs system. If you are considering buying a Belgian gun, look long and hard atits quality. Birmingham did not establish its proof houses until 1813, and though another Act was passed in 1815 to strengthen the former, the laws were not stringent enough, and the Birmingham proof was not recognized as sound until much later, when the Act of 1855, still unsatisfactory, and the eventually satisfactory one of 1868, was passed. Chaineux J. Chaumont M.J. This mark is found on guns that is not made in Belgium by countries that use proofs that is not recognized by the Belgian Proof House. Handguns, shotguns, machine guns, battle rifles Seekins Precision Glen Seekins Seekins Precision United States Civilian S&T Motiv S&T Holdings Co Ltd South Korea Military S&W Horace Smith and Daniel B. Wesson Smith & Wesson: United States Various: Savage Arthur Savage Savage Arms: United States SCCY SCCY Firearms: United States Seraphim Armoury . Breechloaders had existed previously, but Casimir Lefaucheux's 1835 invention of the pin-fire cartridgea cylinder with a pin extending at right angles to the base which detonated a fulminate charge in the cartridgequickly led to better breechloading systems and to the development first of rimfire and then of centerfire cartridges. Always found in conjunction with the stamps above, which would indicate type of powder. source of Manufacturer Serial Numbers. outlawman7 - The reason for a lack of response here may be found in the post immediately above yours. The first on the left and the fourth (the one that resembles a candlestick)indicate provisional proof. barrel began as a means to insure its safety and integrity. 4 0 obj it was my grandfathers and has been in the family for a while. and an eagles head. Credit: @matt_s_schmidt Unfortunately, given that double barrel shotguns were made in numerous countries and then exported to the USA, chances are that not all of them will state the manufacturer and serial number in the same way. Condition Grading Definitions For Antique Firearms, This website may not In contrast to Walther, Mauser did not start over with serial numbers at the . Very little: I'm assuming it isn't a muzzleloader but a breechloader, which means it could be as early as 1860-1865, say. Hello, I have two ELG 1136 Belgian Percussion Dueling pistols with a 6 inch barrel. The book presented below is the second of the series and is covering the gun makers whose names are in the D to F range of the alphabetical order. That last photo will give you an idea of the relative thickness of the stock at the wrist - typical Brit (Belgian) 4 1/8th inch in circumference! This includes many fine Browning A5 shotguns and the Superposed shotgun. Since it reads >>Made in Belgium<< on the side of the tubes it was made for export. Courard N. The size of this book of 232 pages Delcour-Dupont was a barrel maker in Nessonvaux, Belgium. Thanks. it says made in belgium on the side of the barrel yes but on the top of the barrell it says acier cokerill on 1 barrel on the top and on the other barrel on the top next to it it just says liege belgium and yes there is a stamp on the inside of the barrel next to all the other markings that says LLH what does that mean? Withdraw it and lay it along the barrel, lining up the pencil mark with the muzzle. typically do not have a caliber designation; symbols and codes are used It was mandatory post-1924. Comblain H. J. Hi, your shotgun was made after 1924 due to the Perron-Liege proof marks. )t/!Z $e9]DG=Ljr%@6) 8F&Kx[2l~WY7#|9&~L~G3jjV?~2SN?2&=qb'3d0W>l#G2;/|D)c~liS>2lVbD""L0M7;Q"gd)g"G{\3efBd. - Galoppin Weight of proofed barrels, after 1924 fractions of grams no longer used. Baron Emile i have old 12 bore gun with marking as -elg with crown above in oval shape, PV, CHOKE, 1KG 545, X WITH STAR ON IT, 12.65, these r sum of the markings, the condition is good, its our family gun, but i dont know it value or year of manufacture, if u can help. I have pics of the Proof marks I want to show you. 1890, double bbl shotgun, 12 ga, 30" bbls. In 1849 the additional ciphers for provisional proof the letters E.L. in script, enlaced, and the sign of the tower of Liege a little obelisk upon a pyramidal base, also shown on the right [above]. It's very old but I'd like to know more about it. Double proof as prescribed by the French law of 1810. We provide antique gun prices and pictures of each antique firearm we sell. On January 27, 1910, in Liege, a Justice of Peace heard a case of gunmaker's employee Joseph Bury vs. La Zurich insurance company. The same stamp but smaller is found on Flobert guns, selfloading pistols with a excess proof pressure of 50%, on barrels of top break guns for Flobert or revolvers cartridges an excess pressure of 30% and or revolvers which are proofed with 30-50% excess loads. Hand Guns 24 Rifles-Shotguns 22 . Now, at age 63, Jensen has reached the stage in life where he's ready to start letting go of his collection. Prices: side-by-side, from 53,000 + VAT; over-and-under, from 65,000 + VAT. Mark, I'm unclear what the "leg in a circle" looks like; ditto the "star over the k". Bodson TH. Now represents definitive black powder proof except for muzzle loaders, This mark is found on barrels and locks after voluntary semi-smokeless proof, Standard smokeless powder proof on military rifles below 8mm caliber.1898-present, Standard smokeless proof for all arms.1903-present, Mark applied to barrels which failed proof and have returned to makers for reworking. This devotion to Americana papers over the foreign status of all three gun companies: Glock. It has punched on one side of barrel 17.2, on the other side punched JC, EL ,pinfire symbol, K and crown on its top, E LG little crown under them in oval.Please help me to get the closest identification for this nice firearm. Bultot Jean A complete list of suppliers of shotguns. ~JP2lLn)wMO(;%vvRnS>2sw~zG!D""L0MW#+J%d)g"#Q4H&D4&KdU_};g|CN>Is>X&'vqFc&Pkr3EjZ1M&|dv55*6GI?/cOra#2K;cW>rLFtgtycw^4RiK-myVS[${XZw ho"=^f%DeiG wPnD6#diqSg].GI24?>.0 ?~wXy$6Sd3Ln2IdLL_#6)G7OE)7igF. Rich engraved. John Browning's Auto-5 set the bar for semi-automatic shotguns. Sorry for my delay in responding: I've been OOT and off-line for two weeks. 2 On barrel locking system or chamber if the lumps are part of the barrel after final black powder proof, Preliminary proof for unfinished barrels, and indicated barrels had not been weakened after proof by breeching, Used on muzzle loaders, Bore diameter in millimeters. new businesses coming to wilson, nc,